Transcript of 2/3/19 Interview of Dakotah Lilly
No Sanctions! No Coup! No War: US Hands off Venezuela
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Cindy Sheehan: Welcome back to the The Soapbox, I'm your host
Cindy Sheehan. This week I bring back my dear friend, my son in the movement, Dakotah Lilly and we will be having an informal but very informational and enlightening chat about Venezuela. It's past, it's present and it's future, so stay tuned and I'll be right back with dear Dakotah Lilly.
Cindy Sheehan: Dakotah Lilly welcome back to Cindy Sheehan's Soapbox.
Dakotah Lilly: Thanks for having me back, Cindy.
Cindy Sheehan: Thanks for your patience, the listeners don't know but we've had quite a time trying to get this thing to work this morning, so again thanks for your patience. If you wouldn't mind just remind my listeners a little bit about yourself.
Dakotah Lilly: As you said my name is Dakotah, I just turned 21 years old. I am a co-founder of Students and Youth for a New America. I have been active in the "movement" for a couple of years now. My first major action was joining you in Washington, D.C. for Spring Rising a couple of years ago.
Dakotah Lilly: During the glorious days of Obama, when things were so much better and flowery and perfect.
Cindy Sheehan: I know, well that's why we had Spring Rising, just to thank him for all his wonderment.
Dakotah Lilly: Exactly it was just a show of love, a labor of love.
Cindy Sheehan: Yes, that's what it was but we recently also saw each other at the Women's March on the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. this past October where Students and Youth for a New America had a presence there and you were one of our speakers.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, I was lucky enough to be included along with an amazing line up of speakers at the Women's March. It was really a great event, I really enjoyed it as I always do everything with you, Cindy. Now I've been to Venezuela twice in the past year, so I hope to go again soon.
Cindy Sheehan: That's why I invited you on the show today because there's quite a lot of activity happening around Venezuela. A lot of people are like Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump is trying to overthrow Venezuela. You and I both know that U.S. meddling in Latin America started in the 1700's.
Cindy Sheehan: Up to today and especially in Venezuela the U.S. has been desperate to get it's claws back in Venezuela since at least 1999.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, especially since 1999.
Cindy Sheehan: That's been four U.S. Presidents as far as I can ...
Dakotah Lilly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cindy Sheehan: As I can think. You are a student of Venezuela, you call yourself Chavista as I am also a Chavista. Tell us about leading up to here. A lot of people know what's happening right now but they have a very horrible misunderstanding about what's happening in Venezuela.
Cindy Sheehan: Even people on the so-called left, and I use the term left very loosely, will say things like, "Oh, Maduro is a dictator but the U.S. shouldn't be meddling in Venezuela." To me that's saying that, "We agree with U.S. imperialism's reasoning to invade Venezuela but we don't want an invasion."
Cindy Sheehan: Which to me is just being a tool of U.S. imperialism. Why does the U.S. want it's claws in Venezuela so badly?
Dakotah Lilly: I mean I think it's important, we've seen this narrative before so many times and with the strong men, the dictator all these leaders that the United States needs to come in and bring democracy to their people. It's completely unrelated that almost all these countries have some form of natural resource that the United States really wants to get in on.
Dakotah Lilly: We've seen it with Iraq, Syria, Iraq again, Afghanistan, Libya, the list goes on. This isn't a new narrative and I think more people really need to dig behind the headlines. It's no secret that Venezuela has the largest proven oil reserves in the world.
Dakotah Lilly: Over 300 billion barrels, I believe, they have huge deposits of aluminum, gold, other minerals, natural gas. It's was very blessed in it's diversity of resources.
Cindy Sheehan: Maybe also cursed.
Dakotah Lilly: Oh, yeah absolutely. Cursed in a capitalist world obviously because it opens up all those doors for imperialists and war mongers who want to get their hands on it. Like you said this is nothing new in terms of Latin America, it didn't start with Trump, it didn't start with Obama either.
Dakotah Lilly: It started hundreds of years ago but the latest round of targeting of Venezuela really started ever since Hugo Chavez was elected in 1999. Which of course culminated in the 2002 coup against Chavez, that the United States ...
Cindy Sheehan: Between 1999 and 2002 what happened that the United States would want to see Chavez murdered because that was their goal. I believe he was just like maybe hours away from death when his people rose up.
Dakotah Lilly: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Cindy Sheehan: Why would the U.S. want that to happen, why would they want poor Hugo Chavez, minding his own business in Venezuela to be overthrown?
Dakotah Lilly: Because Hugo Chavez and the people that elected him, they started undergoing a transformation of certain proportions. They really brought, I mean the big thing is they brought PDVSA, the state owned oil company, really under state control and really put that power into the hands of the people.
Dakotah Lilly: They started drafting a new constitution, they started talking about rejecting free trade deals that were favorable to the United States as all free trade deals are. They started talking about Latin American integration which really ramped up several years later.
Dakotah Lilly: The discussion started in the early 2000's and obviously all these things are giant thorns in the side of the United States. I mean particularly the oil but every other reform that Chavez did was also unforgivable in the eyes of the United States government.
Dakotah Lilly: This is a guy that was democratically elected, who the United States disregarded the views of millions of Venezuelans in trying to take him out exactly like they are trying to do today. All because they dared to put the interest of Venezuelan people and working class people before the interest of multi-nationals and the U.S. oligarchy.
Dakotah Lilly: I think another big problem that Chavez posed was around the same time ... Chavez was the first one elected in a wave of governments in Latin America that started to say no to the Monroe Doctrine, in varying degrees.
Dakotah Lilly: There was a regional consensus, with the exception of one or two countries, that Chavez started, that was a complete rejection of the Washington consensus. A complete rejection of U.S. interference and a complete rejection of oligarchism.
Dakotah Lilly: I think that posed a huge threat to the ideas that Latin America is just the back yard of the United States.
Cindy Sheehan: You're making a lot of really good excellent points in your statement but one of the most notable exceptions to the swing to the left that happened after Chavez was elected is Colombia. Right next door, next door neighbor to Venezuela and when I interviewed Chavez in 2010 he talked about that.
Cindy Sheehan: He said, "The Colombians we're not different." He said, "We're the same people, it's just this border that is moved closer into Colombia sometimes, gives Venezuela more room, sometimes move more into Venezuela gives Colombia more room.
Cindy Sheehan: The so-called ruling class in Colombia has been a consistent ally of U.S. imperialism.
Dakotah Lilly: Absolutely, I think and there's a reason that Colombia was one of only a very few amount of countries that didn't turn to the left in these years, in this wave across Latin America. Chavez at one point and something that I thought was very stark and very true that Colombia is in some ways the Israel of Latin America.
Dakotah Lilly: It's full of U.S. bases, it's ruling class is completely propped up by the United States, it's economy is dependent on the United States and the people of Colombia, not the oligarchs, not the ruling class, completely suffer.
Dakotah Lilly: There is parts of Colombia where indigenous children die every single week. They keep statistics of hunger, they die every week of hunger, but again there's no talk of sanctions against Colombia, there's no talk of any sort of action in the international community against the government of Colombia because it's so servile to the interests of the United States.
Dakotah Lilly: Much to the detriment of the people and I think that Chavez really made it a point to really speak directly to the people of Colombia in saying that, you know you're not being represented and you're being completely taken advantage of, which didn't sit well with the Colombian ruling class obviously.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, Colombia definitely continues to be an exception to a lot of rules, particularly because the amount of, I guess the amount of which it amounts to being a proxy state at this point, unfortunately.
Cindy Sheehan: One time we were really surprised recently in a vote from the organization of American States where ... I forget who put up the resolution but the resolution was that the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean weren't going to participate anymore unless Cuba was included.
Cindy Sheehan: Surprisingly Colombia voted in favor of that resolution. It was like one of the first times it broke with the United States. It's always the United States and Canada and Colombia against almost all the rest.
Cindy Sheehan: It used to be but now we've seen an alarming right turn in Latin American policy since Hugo Chavez died.
Dakotah Lilly: Yes, I think ...
Cindy Sheehan: Now it's kind of being mixed I think the last vote of to reject or to accept and I think the vote in the Organization for American States was to recognize Guaido as the President and I think the vote was like 18 to 16 against.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah.
Cindy Sheehan: That's pretty close.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah and unfortunately we see a lot of the countries that just a couple of years ago were staunch allies of Venezuela or staunch allies of Bolivarian Revolution. Unfortunately, elections were rigged, some dirty tricks were played and now some of those governments have fallen to the right.
Dakotah Lilly: Not only is that bad for ... I mean it's bad for the people of Venezuela because we have puppets of the United States trying to interfere in their domestic affairs, which is completely against international law. It's against logic in general.
Dakotah Lilly: It's also very detrimental to the working class and the people of these countries, like Argentina. Argentina was a country that defaulted on it's debt in early 2000. Unemployment was skyrocketing, inflation was crushing the [inaudible 00:14:50] terrible.
Dakotah Lilly: Then they went through a process where unemployment nosedived, they built more schools in the period in the Kirchner presidency's than in any other period in history, besides Peron. It was really night and day, they called it the Juan decade as opposed to the lost decade of neoliberalism.
Dakotah Lilly: Now we have a billionaire, Macri who is a complete friend of the United States. He's doing everything in his power to destroy that, all the while ramping up allegations against Venezuela. It's all distraction from the disastrous policies that these countries are implementing in their own countries.
Dakotah Lilly: I mean Honduras and Haiti attacked Venezuela for humanitarian statistics. It's ridiculous, I mean not only has Honduras undergone a coup led by the Obama administration and Hillary Clinton years ago, which took out the elected President Emmanuel Zelaya, but it's abysmal.
Dakotah Lilly: Social statistics in Honduras and Argentina and all these countries that have such a problem with Venezuela, they're abysmal including the United States. It's just more double speak and unfortunately we see a lot of part of it is because of U.S. interference in general, part of it is the role of the media.
Dakotah Lilly: Unfortunately, we've seen some governments go to the right in the past few years. Hopefully and I think there's a really good chance that that will be reversed over the next two years or so. There's a big election in Argentina coming up this year.
Dakotah Lilly: There's an election in Bolivia which I have complete faith that the Bolivian people will reaffirm their support for Evo Morales. The region, I feel like they turned to the left for 20 years, well 20 or so years, 15 to 20 years.
Dakotah Lilly: I feel like they became a little disillusioned for this reason or not. Perhaps because it was constant struggle because of the interference of the United States, the media, the oligarchy, there was a lot of of ... It was a constant struggle honestly.
Dakotah Lilly: I feel like people want it calm and so they voted for these nicer, softer liberals that kind of ... Much like Macron in France, who tried to sell them snake oil and it's kind of really backfired. I think they're realizing it.
Dakotah Lilly: That's my interpretation and I feel like we're going to swing to the other side again because things have just gotten absolutely terrible in the few years the neoliberals have been in power.
Cindy Sheehan: I was just watching a video recently of Chavez and it's just really, is it coincidental that many of those left wing leaders, none of them were as left or as charismatic or effective as Chavez but they were moving that way, but they got cancer.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah.
Cindy Sheehan: It's like is this even statistically possible?
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, I think at one time ...
Cindy Sheehan: That was his question, "Is this even statistically
Dakotah Lilly: I mean it's a good question to ask because I mean Chavez got cancer, Nestor Kirchner died of a heart attack in 2010 I believe. Dima Roussef had a cancer scare, Christina Fernandez de Kirchner had a cancer scare. What are the odds, honestly, what are the odds.
Cindy Sheehan: I am not afraid to say that I believe the United States gave Chavez cancer because he got an incredibly aggressive form of cancer and it is possible for that to happen. They couldn't get rid of him any other way.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, I mean they tried to murder him once, I mean what's to say and the methods we've seen, I mean how many assassinations attempts against Fidel Castro.
Cindy Sheehan: Exactly, poisons of ours.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, I mean they can be very [crosstalk 00:19:35] creative. I really wouldn't put it past them either.
Cindy Sheehan: They have to do it that way because they are so popular, they are so popular that just like and outright assassination attempt would backfire like the coup backfired. The coup attempt that backfired in 2002. We talked about what happened between 1999 and 2002 that motivated the United States to get rid of Chavez but let's talk a little bit about the Bolivarian constitution.
Cindy Sheehan: I love this constitution, mostly because it was written by the people and it was approved by the people, by a referendum vote. To me it was brilliant of Chavez to take Simon Bolivar as his inspiration. Because Simon Bolivar tried to do the exactly the same thing.
Cindy Sheehan: That Chavez tried to do, integrate, unite Latin America, or United Latin States of America or something like and so that's what Chavez tried to do because he knew that these countries alone couldn't really stand up to the United States.
Cindy Sheehan: He created all the Latin American currency, and so then they named their country and the constitution after Simon Bolivar. Talk a little bit about the Bolivarian constitution and why it is so amazing and ground breaking really.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, it's absolutely ground breaking, I don't think we've seen a constitution in modern times that has had the level of civilian participation and civilian input as the Bolivarian Constitution. It enshrines rights for women, rights for the earth, rights for workers and it was very smart and very accurate of Hugo Chavez to invoke the memories of Simon Bolivar, the great liberator.
Dakotah Lilly: Because that I believe is exactly what Hugo Chavez was, he was a liberator. This constitution like you said it was formed, they elected constituent assemblies which Chavez and his party won overwhelmingly. It was debated over the course of several months and it was put to a vote by the people.
Dakotah Lilly: The people ratified it overwhelmingly. This is after years and years of neoliberalism and having a constitution that really didn't apply and really didn't offer protection to anyone besides the ruling class. Which I think is the case for most constitutions in the world.
Cindy Sheehan: Especially the United States constitution.
Dakotah Lilly: Oh, yeah, I mean for some reason we hold up the constitution and for it's time the constitution whatever there's some things to be said about that but I mean it was written quite a long time ago. I think it's time we move on, quite honestly.
Dakotah Lilly: The institutions and the ideals that we had in the 1700's aren't, at least they shouldn't be still alive in 2019.
Cindy Sheehan: I mean it's just like, people put it up like you said, like it's written in stone. Like it's something that is Holy but it might have been okay for back then, that's debatable, the Bill of Rights was just put there because some states wouldn't vote for it without a Bill of Rights but it was written by ... This is the difference.
Cindy Sheehan: The United States constitution was written by the plutocracy, the oligarchy, whatever of that time. The constitution of Venezuela was written by the people and voted on by the people and the only way it can be changed is by the people. Not through some kind of bizarre, almost impossible thing to change the constitution of the United States.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, and I mean I think it really shows the difference in who drafted it and who was the brains behind it. Obviously there's some facts we don't really talk about when it comes to the so-called founding fathers. I mean George Washington was the richest man in the country, I mean they were all very, very text book plutocrats.
Dakotah Lilly: Meanwhile in Venezuela you had a process that really empowered citizens. Like you said the equal rights amendments for example, an amendment for equality for women. That couldn't even get passed because of the impossibility of the safeguards put up by the plutocrats to amend the constitution.
Cindy Sheehan: Yeah, so here today in 2019 women in the United States still don't have full constitutional protection rights. In 1999, 2000 the people of Venezuela was making sure that that was guaranteed in their constitution because a lot of the people who were writing it and voting on it at least half were women.
Dakotah Lilly: Oh, yeah absolutely and that's another accomplishment of so many socialist processes throughout history and currently is the empowerment and participation of women.
Cindy Sheehan: When I've been to Venezuela going out into the barrios and stuff, the women are ... In Cuba also. It's like the women run the community politics and social programs. They not only run them, they are the energy behind them.
Cindy Sheehan: If it weren't for the women, in these communities or barrios, a lot of the stuff wouldn't be getting done. The women in these countries, the socialist project like you said. Even back in 1917 and the Russian Revolution, they were putting women at the forefront of their revolution.
Cindy Sheehan: Just instrumental in running the country, running these countries.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, absolutely, I mean if you go and you look at the community organization in Cuba, in Nicaragua and Venezuela you see such a level of empowerment of women on so many different levels. On the political, on the economic, on the social and the cultural that you don't see in capitalist countries.
Dakotah Lilly: Like you said the Soviet Union it really did the same exact thing, another thing people don't really talk about. I mean the writings of Alexandra Kollontai on feminism and socialism are extremely pertinent. It really shows the works of these socialist feminist scholars coming through in the contemporary examples that we mentioned.
Dakotah Lilly: Hugo Chavez was the first President in Venezuela to proclaim himself a feminist and when he said a feminist he didn't mean an imperial feminist. He doesn't mean a Hillary Clinton feminist or a Kamala Harris.
Cindy Sheehan: He didn't knit up a pink pussy hat.
Dakotah Lilly: No, absolutely not.
Cindy Sheehan: Say, we're voting for Clinton.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, he meant empowering working class women, women hold up half the sky really espousing those ideals in calling our capitalist exploitation of women and just the gross oppression that women face independent and because of capitalism.
Dakotah Lilly: Something we don't see in this country, especially not from, even especially from people who call themselves feminists. I guess the question remains who is your feminism for? If it's not for working class women, if it's not for the women whose children were killed by the sanctions that Madeleine Albright supported.
Dakotah Lilly: I mean she's a woman, so that's the question, who does it represent?
Cindy Sheehan: If your feminism supports an imperialist, a vicious imperialist like Hillary Clinton, then you just might as well just lose the term. I don't have a lot of time left but let's talk a little bit about Maduro and what's happening today.
Cindy Sheehan: I mentioned before that a lot of so called left wingers or liberals or whatever are saying Maduro was a vicious dictator and there's so many problems in Venezuela that he has to go and blah, blah, blah. Or they'll even say things which really piss me off like, "Well, you don't have to agree with Maduro but what you have to do is agree that the U.S. shouldn't be involved in it."
Cindy Sheehan: My position is that Maduro is doing the best he can and has been doing the best he can under the most difficult conditions. He replaced a mega popular leader who could, sometimes just use the force of his personality to get things done.
Cindy Sheehan: Who was his friend by the way, they were super close, so here you lose one of your best friends horribly to cancer. Then you have to take over his job that wasn't finished yet, of transforming the country of Venezuela.
Cindy Sheehan: Plus you have to do it under the threat of assassination, coup attempts, fighting the United States and Great Britain for your assets against sanctions and other economic terrorism. I think Maduro is there, and I do know Maduro also.
Cindy Sheehan: I think Maduro is there because he loves Venezuela and he believed in the Bolivarian Revolution. Why else would anybody want to step into such a difficult situation?
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, I mean you're putting your life at risk as we've seen with an assassination attempt in August against Maduro's life. I think it's a bit of a cop out for people to say, "Oh, well, we don't agree with Maduro but you shouldn't interfere.
Dakotah Lilly: It's like, "You're kind of half-assing it, aren't you?"
Cindy Sheehan: Why shouldn't we interfere if Maduro is so terrible, why shouldn't the U.S. interfere or whatever? It's like if you ... Just the softer one, you don't have to agree with Maduro but it's like no, absolutely you don't have to agree with Maduro because guess what, you don't live in Venezuela.
Dakotah Lilly: Exactly and I think people should qualify their support, I think it's just a giant middle finger to the almost 7 million people who just voted for Maduro a couple months ago.
Cindy Sheehan: There's also this great white savior syndrome, is like, we know what's best for those backwards people in Venezuela. Totally discounting that overwhelming support that through difficult odds that the Bolivarian Revolution has overcome over and over and over again since let's just say 2000.
Cindy Sheehan: It's saying we know better than the people of Venezuela, we know better than the people of Syria, we know better than the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. That's basically the foundation of U.S. imperialism. It's not the people on top, they're just there for greed, for resource control, for power, for capitalism.
Cindy Sheehan: It's basically what keeps the people of the United States kind of in alignment with this vicious policy.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah, absolutely and I think and I've done interviews about this and I talked about this before. I think it's so ridiculous that we've seen such a diaspora of support for the Bolivarian Revolution ever since Chavez died.
Dakotah Lilly: I think it just shows that when times get tough, certain people leave. It's unfortunate but the Venezuelan people have remained. Millions of people still show up every single day to their community meetings, to their organizational procedural events.
Dakotah Lilly: They still show up to vote, they show up for their marches. Stuff that isn't shown in corporate media but stuff that happens every single day that really reaffirms the support for Maduro and reaffirms the support for the Bolivarian Revolution and the legacy of Chavez.
Dakotah Lilly: Like you said, I mean the amount of sabotage and outright terrorism that is perpetrated against Venezuela is really and it's much more covert. It's much more covert than like Syria for example where it's pretty obvious we are drone striking, we give weapons.
Dakotah Lilly: That's a little bit more overt but when you freeze assets and you give the keys to some of the assets to some rando who himself president. When you steal billions of dollars Venezuela assets from the bank of England. When you give ...
Cindy Sheehan: The US has frozen CITGO profits I think.
Dakotah Lilly: Billions of dollars that are destined to import medicine and food for Venezuelan people, remain frozen in European and American banks because of these sanctions in this economic war. The Venezuelan government was importing tons, literally tons of diabetes and malaria drugs that were blocked by the government of Colombia because they received orders from the United States.
Dakotah Lilly: The amount of smuggling that happens with the help of the government of Colombia over the border of products. The opposition burned 50 tons of food in a warehouse, I mean the list is literally endless. These problems are not because of socialism.
Dakotah Lilly: In fact it really shows just how successful socialism can be when it takes this type of coordinated attack and action to take it down. Even if these dire circumstances, the revolution is continuing. Just the other day they delivered the 2.6 millionth home to the people of Venezuela.
Dakotah Lilly: In just a couple of years, they've built 2.6 million homes, more than any other country in the world, through the housing mission in Venezuela. To provide housing to millions of Venezuelans, 2.6 million homes and that's under these dire economic situations that are imposed from outside.
Dakotah Lilly: There's almost 200,000 homeless children in New York City on any given night but not Venezuela.
Cindy Sheehan: On the other hand here in the United States with it's polar vortex people are freezing to death on the streets. Here we are saying or here the U.S. is saying, I don't say we when I talk about the government.
Cindy Sheehan: The Trump administration or Trump regime is saying, "We're going to give $20 million in aid to Venezuela, we're going to spend trillions of dollars on our U.S. imperial project but we're going to allow people to freeze to death on our streets."
Dakotah Lilly: Absolutely.
Cindy Sheehan: It's murder, it's just murder, U.S. imperialism is murdering all these people.
Dakotah Lilly: Absolutely and the world and in the United States itself because, last night everyone knows how cold it was, I mean some of us live in California.
Cindy Sheehan: I didn't know how cold it was but I'm going to pretend to imagine how cold it was.
Dakotah Lilly: Colder in parts of the United States than it was in Antarctica. 15 people froze to death in just Chicago.
Cindy Sheehan: That is appalling.
Dakotah Lilly: Yeah.
Cindy Sheehan: Devastating and unnecessary, so unnecessary, capitalism is so rotten there's enough houses for each homeless person in the United States to have about 20 houses each or 20 apartments each. There's enough vacant units to put these people in but capitalism and imperialism is allowing them to freeze to death or starve to death.
Cindy Sheehan: Maybe they wouldn't freeze to death if they weren't already so compromised from bing homeless but I think with these temperatures it's kind of hard to avoid. It's just like pitiful, it's pathetic.
Dakotah Lilly: It really is and it shows the disregard that the ruling class has for the people and for this country and for just the world's people in general. Even last night I waited almost an hour for a train in this polar vortex.
Dakotah Lilly: In the richest city, in the richest country in the world, I waited an hour in negative temperatures [crosstalk 00:39:01] I've taken the Caracas metro before, not only was it free but it came on time and it was cleaner.
Dakotah Lilly: It just really shows what socialism can do, I mean socialism has completely transformed Venezuela in the most positive ways possible, it's only imaginable what it can do in the United States and the rest of the world really.
Dakotah Lilly: That's why I think Venezuela should continue to serve as a model for us.
Cindy Sheehan: That's why it's going to continue to be demonized and attacked all the time. Dakotah, I really thank you so much for being on Cindy Sheehan's Soapbox and letting me rant and rave and having this very informal chat about something that's very near and dear to both of us.
Dakotah Lilly: Absolutely, any time Cindy.
Cindy Sheehan: Okay, I love you mucho.
Dakotah Lilly: Yep, mucho amore.
Cindy Sheehan: Okay talk to you later.
Dakotah Lilly: Yep, bye, bye.
Cindy Sheehan: That's all for this week, as always I hope you were informed and inspired to do further research. As always I'd like to thank my engineer, Don DeBar65u, my guest Dakotah Lilly and you for listening to and supporting the show. I'm Cindy Sheehan, you've been listening to the The Soapbox, peace out for now.